grief

Michelle Croyle: I am here with another Michelle today. So, I don't do a lot of guest interview episodes, but when I think that there's something really important or a guest that I really want you to hear something from that I think can be helpful, I'm happy to do it. And so this is another Michelle. Michelle Bader Ebersole. She is just really great. We've swapped podcasts. I've been on hers and now she is on mine because we want to talk about the holidays and how to handle grief. Whether you're a support person or you are going through grief this holiday season, Michelle is the wonderful one of the duo behind the podcast: Widowed 2 Soon. She's really versed in helping people to get through the grieving process. And I'm just going to start by welcoming you, Michelle, and asking if you would just give a brief synopsis of what led to your podcast.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: All right, well, thank you, Michelle. It's always nice to meet a fellow Michelle. Yeah, people around our age, it was like, super popular. There were so many Michelles. Now, you don't hear it as often, so it's always nice to meet someone.

So, I became widowed May 23, 2020. My husband Luke had a long about 16 and a half years off and on battle with cancer, as well as lots of other issues, so I was prepared in that I knew he was going to pass away. Of course, we were still praying for healing until the end. He got his healing in heaven. I was a widow at 41 years old and just totally lost. I had three kids at that time. They were 15, 14, and 12. I just felt completely lost in this new world as a widow. I called every widow I knew, and I actually knew like, five or six, and I said, please tell me this gets better, and they all told me that it did.

I started to heal. I went through a lot of grief counseling, my regular counseling, grief retreat, every book I could find, and just really worked on myself and getting healing. I started doing pretty good and decided I wanted to turn around and help other people. I met a man named Mark Massaro on Young and Widowed with Children on Facebook, and we became really good friends. His wife passed away from cancer, and we just saw there was a lot of hopelessness. We were like, people are turning to all the wrong things. We need to show them Jesus, so we decided to start a podcast. So that's a little bit about how I got started. We've been doing it a little over two years, and we just reached our 103rd episode.

Michelle Croyle: Congratulations. That's wonderful.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: Thank you. We love helping people. In addition, I started a nonprofit for widows called Widow Goals. We do events and also grief recovery classes, which just basically helps people through grief a little bit. So, that's a little bit about how I got started in my podcast and my background.

Michelle Croyle: Thank you so much for sharing that. So, you know what you're talking about, and you've had a lot of experience at this point talking about it and helping other people. I am wondering if we start with just the people who are the support people to the people who are in that inner circle of grief at the holidays, what are the things that support people should know? Things not to do or things that they might not think of that people wish?

Michelle Bader Ebersole: Yes. The biggest thing that I hear from almost every new widow is like, I can't stand it when people say, let me know if there's anything you need from me or I can do. Let me know if there's anything I can do? Because when you're new in grief, you don't know. You can barely make decisions at all. So, what I would suggest instead is be very specific. Hey, can I come over and help you wrap presents? Or hey, can I take your kids out so you can go shopping? Or something like that. Be very specific because when you're new in grief, you're just trying to get through the moment, like not even a day.

I just met with a new widow. She's only one month old a couple days ago, and she's in that. She was talking about how it's hard when people ask her that question. She's like, I can barely survive the minute. I remember what that was like to be there. I would say, definitely being very specific. Around the holidays, there are a lot of things you could do. Like I said, if they have kids, you could take their kids, so they could go shopping. You could actually do something really nice for them. My mom used to do this for me. She would take my kids and shop for me. See, that would be really nice. You could reach out to someone if they have kids and they need help, let me take your kids to shop for you.

Michelle Croyle: That's really a great idea.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: Yeah, just be very whatever your idea is. These are just a couple. Be very specific because that person has no idea what to is. I'm approaching my fourth year. I can't believe it. We figured out when we were decorating the tree, it's our fourth Christmas without Luke.

One of the things that was really important to me is to keep some of the old traditions, but add new traditions because it is just too painful. For example, the first year, it'd been like four months since he died or something. We used to always do the pumpkin patch for Halloween, and that year it was a disaster. I mean, my kids were kind of outgrowing it, but it was just so sad. I was crying. It was so empty that I was like, okay, Thanksgiving, we're doing something different. Christmas, we're doing something different. And that year we went to Great Wolf Lodge, which they have those all across the country. It's basically like a hotel with a waterslide park. We went to Great Wolf Lodge for Thanksgiving because I was like, I'm not going to just sit around and miss him.

So just know if you're the support person, your friends might want to do something different. Talk to them and maybe help them come up with ideas of things that they could do that are different than their normal traditions. If that's what they want, that's what I wanted. We keep a lot of the same traditions. For example, we have the same Christmas movies we watch every single year. We still do that. The first year, it was hard. I remember it being hard, but we still did it. We still put up the same decorations Christmas morning we always had and still have Cinnabons. It's the one time a year I buy them and they are so good, but we used to just have them. The first year, it just felt so empty because Luke really loved those, so I said, hey, let's start a new tradition. Let's talk about your favorite Christmas memories with your dad. And so now that's what we do every Christmas morning as we're eating our cinnamon rolls.

So your listeners know, I'm actually remarried. I've been married for eight months now, and we're still going to do it because my husband, Joel, understands my love for my late spouse and that my kids and I are still going to talk about him, and he respects that. That's really important.

Michelle Croyle: Definitely a blessing.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: Yes. It's been so great to have him just really support everything we're doing. It's been fun bringing him into our traditions, like over Thanksgiving break, when my oldest was home from college, we watched five Christmas movies. We watched Santa Claus, One, Two, and Three, and Home Alone One and Two and Joel had never seen some of those, so it was fun for him to be a part of our tradition. 

Michelle Croyle: That's so great!

Michelle Bader Ebersole: Yeah, and so we did that. So, I would say, as the support person, be very specific and know that they might need to add in some new things, and you can be part of that. You could sit down with them and brainstorm, because they're probably not thinking very clearly about what they want.

Michelle Croyle: How long did it take for you to start thinking more clearly?

Michelle Bader Ebersole: I mean, a few months, but the holidays kind of brought me back. That was Luke's absolute favorite. He would always be like, I'm Christmas guy, so it was really difficult. Another thing that was difficult, so we got married at this very beautiful Victorian mansion, and when I was 14 years old, we visited at Christmas, and I was like, I'm going to get married here someday. Ten years later, when I was 24, Luke and I got married there, and then we would take our kids every Christmas to go back and see the lights at Christmas. I've not gone back. That one's too hard for me.

I mean, I think now, and I might even want to show Joel that and show my kids again. I think now I would be okay. But in the beginning, it was like any place that Luke would be was so hard. The hardest thing for me was going to his parents house on Christmas Day without him, and everybody cried. His sister, his mom, like, everybody, because it was so obvious he was supposed to be there. So as a support person, whether you're, the family or the friends, know that it's going to be difficult, but let them feel it. What we feel, we heal. Don't try to just comfort their tears away, actually.

This is something huge that we talk about in grief recovery. You have to let grieving people grieve. There's no way around grief, I always say. It's like, I used to be a kindergarten teacher, so I relate to this. Like going on a bear hunt. It's like, can't go around it, can't go over it, can't go under it. You got to go through it. And that's how it is in grief. You have to let your friends go through it. Of course, be there. Really all they want is someone to listen. Even the friend, my new friend that I just visited with my nonprofit, I try to go around and visit new widows when I hear about them. She just wanted someone to listen. And that's really what your friends want. They don't need you to try to make it better.

Please don't say things like, well, he's in a better place. She's in a better place. You're so lucky to have them so long. These things that you think may be comforting, they're actually not. Here's my all time least favorite one I ever got. Well, God just needed another angel. First of all, as Christians, that's not what we believe. We don't turn into angels.

Michelle Croyle: Yes.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: And second of all, that's just not even comforting.

Michelle Croyle: I needed my angel here exactly right then.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: Right. And at least he's not in pain. Yes. We know if they were suffering, we know that. We talk about in grief recovery, it's things that are intellectually true but not emotionally helpful. So that's not emotionally helpful.

Michelle Croyle: Yeah.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: So just try to refrain from saying things. We have actually two entire episodes about this on our podcast. We did them like a year apart.  We called one Clueless Things that People Say, and then we had another one. I can't remember what we called it, but it was the same kind of thing, just like being sensitive, that this is a really hard time of year. I would say the hardest time for almost every widow and widower I meet, because family is so big at the holidays. I would recommend just being there to listen, be specific, help them figure out things that they want to do.

I think the biggest thing is just being a listener, like, hey, can I come over and just listen to you? I just want to hear you talk. And don't try to fix it for them. Don't try to make it better. Don't try to stop their tears. In fact, in grief recovery, we're not allowed to touch the people who are crying. You probably know this from being a counselor and all that stuff. It actually stops their grieving. Yeah, when you touch them. And it's really hard in a group setting online, obviously it's much easier. I couldn't touch them. But in a group and everybody is, especially all women. I've had several all women groups. They just want to here's your Kleenex. We're not even to offer them Kleenex. Like, we put it in front of them before they start. But we just listen.

I want to highly recommend that you just listen, and then you can explain yourself. I did this with my daughter recently who was crying, and I told her after she finished crying, the reason I didn't comfort you is because the healthiest thing for you is to feel this. I don't want to stop your pain.

Michelle Croyle: Yeah.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: You can explain it to them if you want, so you don't feel like they're like, why are you not hugging me? Or something? And you can offer them a hug when they're through the majority of their crying, but let them feel it. That's one of the biggest things I've learned is let them feel it. They may have different random times. I remember being in the grocery store and just crying as I'm looking at this dumb, like, Chef Boyardee can of something that Luke liked, nobody else liked. And I was like, I'm not going to buy that. No, just random times. Don't stuff the feelings and let them give them permission to talk about their loved one who died and give them permission to cry.

Like, the girl I was with the other day, she kept saying sorry when she's crying. I'm like, please do not be sorry; this is so healthy for you; this is so good. Let them know, please cry, like, if you need to cry, cry. I am here just to listen and really listen and don't talk and interject all of your stuff.

Michelle Croyle: Yeah. So good. And then for the flip side, the people who are in the grief right now, and it's really real and really hard, what advice would you offer them through this season?

Michelle Bader Ebersole: First of all, that it won't always be this hard. I used to just say that, but that's a myth. Time does not heal everything. If you take steps towards healing, if you're getting the help that you need through counseling, books, different grief groups, if you take the steps, it won't always hurt that bad. Like, I remember the first year is excruciating, and to just know that it won't and we as Christians, it's all about Jesus and His healing. Cling to Him when you're like, nobody gets this. I remember that feeling so much because it's like most of your friends I mean, I had a few widow friends, but most, like, the majority of my close friends had their husbands still, and I felt so alone.

It just kind of changes everything. So just know, cling to God, know that it won't always feel this bad. Like I said, make new traditions. That was huge. Mix the old with the new. For example, every year with Luke, we would go and cut down a Christmas tree together. Well, after my pumpkin patch experience, I'm like, we can't go to the same place. So, we switched farms that we go to, and my brother came to help us because my oldest was just learning how to cut down the tree and didn't quite know how to do it on his own. Now, even though my new husband could easily cut down the tree, I'm like, let the boys do it. This was their dad's thing. Like Luke taught Hayden, and now Hayden's teaching Peyton, who is 15. Yeah. So this year, even though Joel could have easily done it in his second, the boys did it.

Michelle Croyle: It's significant for them to have that connection to dad.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: Yes, exactly. And just know that there's going to be grief in your holidays but make plans. Make a time that you can just be home crying. But then I would highly advise having a plan. What am I going to do on Christmas? What am I going to do on Christmas Eve? I recommend being around people that you love and that love you, and they're going to be okay if you cry, and they're going to be okay, whatever you're feeling. But make a plan. I think that's so important. I feel like that really helped me through my first holidays, is like, every single holiday, I had a plan for what I was going to do.

Michelle Croyle: I think it makes a lot of sense from a counseling perspective, too, because when we lose somebody, we're already feeling out of control of something that we would love to be able to fix and we can't. Having a plan of, well, at least I can plan how I'm going to approach this thing that I don't really want to approach, at least gives some sense of significance to your actions being helpful and something productive that allows you to touch base and go, but I can do this. Okay, I can own something. Again, it's certainly not going to heal everything, but I think it gives you a touchstone that says, okay, I can make something happen here that relieves some of the pain in some way.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: Right. And another thing I did in the beginning of my grief is I created a group chat with friends, like really close friends, and asked, Can I put you in this when I need prayer, when I need something? And I would just reach out when I needed something, or like, I'm having a really hard day. Can you guys pray for me? And that was super helpful.

Michelle Croyle: That's a great idea.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: Instead of copy, paste all these people, it was like one group. I could reach out and just say, I'm having a horrible day. Please pray for me. And then I would give them the opportunity, if they wanted to do something special for me, like show up with flowers, which I have from Melissa. She did that so many times. Or just different things that would lift my spirits. They had the chance to do that. Or just come over and listen to know.

So let people know what you need. Do not be afraid to ask for what you want for help. Don't think you're a burden. I think in the last podcast, Mark was talking about, he used to feel like he was a burden. We were also talking about the holidays, I think, two episodes ago, and he was just like, I used to not reach out, but don't do like people want to. People I really feel, for the most part, people are good hearted. They want to help.

A lot of times they have no idea what to do or what to say. And that's why being specific is good. Also. Hopefully, the people listening will get that and they will be specific as a support person.

Michelle Croyle: And that's why what you do is so important, because this education, it gives some sort of structure to something that we don't often talk about.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: Right. There's so little education on grief, and there's a big misconception. I don't know if you've ever talked about this on your podcast, but there is actually no such thing as the stages of grief for those people mourning.

Michelle Croyle: Yeah, I know that there can be the tendencies of you can touch upon them, but there's no linear stages of grief going through it. It's just you go through it at your own stuff, and those may be.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: In there for so that was actually the history. I can't remember the name of the nurse right now. It's in the grief recovery book.

Michelle Croyle: Elizabeth nurse Lera.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: Yes. Thank you. That's it. They created those for those dying, that they were going through those stages, not for those grieving. So I didn't know that at first. And so a lot of times people are like, what's wrong with me? I'm not going through anger.

Michelle Croyle: I'm not going through that. That's interesting. I did not realize that.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: And so that is absolutely crazy that there's so much misinformation. Reminds me of the game of telephone. Like, it started out this way and then somebody told somebody, and somebody told somebody that the majority, if you polled the majority of people, they would think there are stages of grief. So that's one of the first things I educate new widows on. That's not for you. Do not feel that if you don't go through denial.

Michelle Croyle:  You don't have to feel guilty for not feeling the way someone thinks textbook should look because your relationship is totally different.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: Yeah.

Michelle Croyle: So if people want to listen to your podcast, it's Widowed 2 Soon, and they can find that on all podcasts.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: Yes. And it's with the number two. Kind of a plain word, since there's two of us widowed too soon with the number two. Yeah. We are on every podcast platform, I think. I mean, we've tried to put it on every one of them and we're.

Michelle Croyle: Also now on YouTube, we're on with video.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: We have our video shows up on Spotify every time as well. And if you are someone so definitely share that. If you know someone who's widowed, we really try to help people. We have guests on. And then if you're someone who really wants to move forward in grief, I lead these classes. I've mentioned it a million times because it's something I do so much just comes naturally. It's called grief recovery. And I lead online and in person classes. They're seven weeks. And we're basically, like, really going through, what are all the losses you've had in your life? We graph out your life and what you've lost, and then you pick your biggest loss. And we work on that because it's like when you're born, you have a backpack, and every time you have a loss, a rock goes into it until you can't function anymore. We help you remove the biggest rock first, the boulder that a lot of times is the death of someone, but a lot of times it can also be divorce. My last class was majority divorce or any other of the major 40 losses in life that can bring grief. Yes. So you can reach out to me, Michelle@widowgolds.org, if you're interested in learning more or about anything we do with our nonprofit.

Michelle Croyle: That is so cool, Michelle, thank you so much.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: Thank you.

Michelle Croyle: I really appreciate you doing this. I'm sure there are going to be listeners that find it very practical and very helpful to get through the holiday this way.

Michelle Bader Ebersole: Yes. Well, thanks for having me on.

Michelle Croyle: Thank you.

I have a love hate relationship with something and I want to share it with you. I don't know if maybe you feel the same way. You can let me know either way if you want to go to the Facebook group or on Instagram and send me a direct message that let me know. How do you feel about Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol? How do you feel about that? I have mixed feelings about it. Every year I have mixed feelings about it. I suspect I actually like it, but I don't. Whenever my husband says, oh, do you want to watch this? I'm like, no, I don't want to watch this, but yet I do. It's so bizarre.

Here's why: I do love the messaging. I do love the many versions that I've seen of A Christmas Carol. I've read the book. I've seen it with Jim Carrey. I've seen it with Henry Winkler. I've seen it with cartoon characters. I mean, I've seen a Christmas Carol and I've actually read the Dickens story. There's value in all of it. The story is not missed. The story being that how we live impacts people's lives and being generous and helping people impacts them. We can impact them for good or for bad. The way we live our lives matters. In the end, what do we want to be known for? What do we want to have accomplished?

This is good, deep stuff, especially for someone like me who has a therapy background where it's like, well, of course I love talking about the stuff that makes life really important and significant. I don't do small talk. I do deep talk. I really love deep talk. Yet this is dark and it's inspirational. It's like when I read Holocaust books not because I like reading about the Holocaust, but because I like reading about how the human spirit and faith in God and people under the direst of circumstances caring for each other is inspirational. It's both awful and inspirational. Dickens' A Christmas Carol is both dark and inspirational because life often has more than one feeling at the same time, more than one observation at the same time.

It got me thinking about if I'm feeling this way, where, oh, I remember these things of Christmas past that were so good and you might be too. If you're feeling nostalgia towards the things of the past and you are sad because they're not here today and you wish that they were, I want to encourage you that it can be both. It can both be that it's not like it was, and it can be that you can enjoy today as well. It can be that you can make good memories today for tomorrow, so when you or your kids or grandkids look back, they can see these were the good old days for them. That doesn't mean that the future days in their present or your present in the future won't be good for you too. Both can coexist.  

I want to talk about that today in the sense that, just like with a Christmas Carol, I can have both a love/hate relationship with it. I can take the good from it, and I cannot like a lot of the stuff that makes me sad or want to cringe when I watch it, right? We can do that with our lives. When we look back and we think about how great things were or even how bad things were, I mean, some people did not have a great Christmas historically. If that's you, you can do this kind of in reverse of what I'm saying as well. You get to places where you look back and things either aren't like that now and you wish they were, or they're better now and you're glad they aren't like that.

What do we do with it when we feel like we're remembering something and it's bringing up something unpleasant, like longing or sadness or regrets or a hope for something that we can no longer have, like people to be with us that can't be here anymore. I want to encourage you to look at those things as something you can do something about in the present. Because when we get wistful, when we look back, we're forgetting that those things help contribute to who we are today. When you can see who we are today. Just like Scrooge, right? He was able to look back with the Ghost of Christmas Past and go, that's how I live my life. That's what led to this stuff. I can change it going forward. Well, it's the same thing with good stuff, but we can't get stuck in the past wishing for those good things and missing out on today's good stuff.

I want you to realize, just like with me and having both a love/hate relationship with A Christmas Carol, you can have both feelings. You can have feelings of nostalgia and longing and grief and loss and sadness. And at the same time, hope and excitement and new experiences and new traditions can await you as well. It's not the end of the story whether the past was good or the past was bad. 

If it was good, you can carry it with you. Bring Grandma's favorite recipes to the table. Play a game like you used to play when you were a kid. Bring out the old movies for a little bit.

If it was bad, do something to gain what you didn't have back then. Maybe you didn't get toys, so take yourself out and get yourself something nice. Maybe you didn't have a church family, so go to a church service today. Maybe you didn't have supportive network, so find a support group somewhere.

Don't let the past or your emotions, whether positive or negative, whether abundance or lack, take away from the fact that you are a human being who can experience all of the awarenesses, positive and negative, good and bad, abundance and lack, and they can coexist. Today you get to acknowledge the fact that, yep, that's your experience. Simply part of the human experience, right?

The Bible says to forget the former things, God is doing a new thing. It also talks about remembrance, and I think that's indicative of a place for both leaving behind what is past and pressing forward to the goals in Christ Jesus, but also being informed. We have scripture to look back so that we know the story of where we came from and where we are today. Both are important, but it's the story that you and God are writing today that is where you have your power.

Don't be like the one relative that I have who lost her mom and then all of a sudden didn't go out for special occasions on holidays like, oh, no, I'm not going out. Her mother's the one who died. She acted like she did. She still had time to enjoy, and yet she wouldn't celebrate with anybody because she just wanted to stay home. I get that sometimes you feel like staying home, but this was almost like she set up a shrine and said, my mother died, so I can't go out for the holidays. I want to encourage you that that is not how you have to live. You can both honor somebody or honor a memory and bring the life they lived or the good things from the memory with you into the future or learn from it and do something with it in the present, in the future that makes it good or helps you remember or makes you feel better and honors somebody's memory without losing your present power, your present self. Because the future, when you look back, these are going to be the good old days or the days that you're like, oh, that was really rough.

What you do today becomes tomorrow's past. Just be real about it. It can coexist and that can give you peace. Because you don't have to try to pretend everything's perfect. You don't have to get everything perfect for the holidays. Holidays are not perfect. They're human things. Humans are involved in them; therefore, they're not going to be perfect. The fact that they are perfect is the fact that they're imperfect. We know that the holidays are going to have some highs and some bumps in the road, and that's okay. When we can accept that both exist and we don't have to get stuck, we don't have to make it like, oh, everything's ruined because the turkey got burnt. So what? That becomes a good memory.

Going forward, don't take yourself or life too seriously. Enjoy today and be wise about the story you tell yourself. It's not often either or. Highs and lows can coexist. Good memories and sad memories and present hopes and futures of hope can exist, as can stressors. It's okay to know that this is just part of the human experience. It doesn't have to throw me, but I can grieve when I need to, I can celebrate when I want to, I can remember as I wish, and I can move on and do new things. It's all healthy, flexible empowerment. I hope that helps lighten your load today for the holidays!